Cablenut - Broadbandnuts - DSLnuts

News & Announcements => News for Broadbandnuts & DSLnuts => Topic started by: chpalmer on January 30, 2012, 02:35:35 am

Title: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: chpalmer on January 30, 2012, 02:35:35 am
   If your here reading this post you have internet connectivity of some kind. Whether it be dialup, ISDN, T-1, or some other form of broadband, you have probably experienced the wait for a download. Nowadays if you have cable internet, or you live close enough to the telephone company C.O. you can probably subscribe to a higher tier for speeds that will drastically reduce your wait times. If though you are in an area not served by cable or close enough to get the better DSL tiers, you are probably living with patience that users of the higher speed tiers have long forgotten.

   There's satellite internet solutions that can make dialup seem fast at times. And with the higher cost, much higher latency, and much lower usage caps, satellite is last resort. Cellular solutions exist but for the most part have low usage caps and higher cost as well. In some cases you can still subscribe to DSL but have limited speeds due to the distance from the C.O. or the fact that you are fed from a remote DSLAM. My office is a good example of the remote DSLAM connection.

   Our DSLAM is fed via 8 T-1 circuits from the Century Link central office in the town nearest our location. The areas covered by these remote DSLAMs are limited in available speed to 1.5mbps down and 896kbps up. Did I mention patience? For many years back to the day Qwest, the original phone service provider, turned up our area for DSL we have hoped for faster service.

   Not to long ago though I learned of a technology that is used to bond DSL circuits in much the same way the T-1 circuits to our DSLAM 1 mile away are bonded, known as MLPPP or Multi Link Point-to-Point Protocol. Whats needed is an ISP that can and is willing to provide the service using this method and a device on the client end that also works to provide it.

        What this gets you is the speed of all the links combined. So 4X 1.5 connections would get me a single 6mbps connection. And the 896kbps upload I have X4 would get me about 3.5mbps upload. Yes its means 4 dsl circuits but it might be the only way to get the speed you want without moving. In my case I only bond two for a 3mbps by about 1.5mbps connection.

   TekSavvy in Canada was the only ISP that I knew of at the time that provided it. There were others that I only learned about later. But in the U.S. the service was widely unheard of.

   Also- I learned that the particular router I was already using (pfSense) was capable of bonding DSL circuits via MLPPP. In fact there are users that have 6 lines bonded on their units. Other devices include Microtik routers, Tomato MLPPP version firmware, and others that I will update this post with as I run into them. Of coarse this means your modems are in bridge mode and the router does the login, but Ive found this to be better anyways. And I was able to get my local ISP to support it. That was key.
   Of course you need at least two DSL lines and more if you desire, to bond lines. Century Link is beginning to offer MLPPP in their legacy (non Qwest) areas on VDSL connections, but does not offer it anywhere else. However if you use one of the many ISP's that offer DSL service using Century Link connections, the possibility is there. This probably includes other phone companies such as Verizon and AT&T also but I have no knowledge either way.

   Another trend that is popping up is for companies to offer bonding service over multiple connection types. So whether you have a combination of services I.E. cable, dsl, wireless, ect. you can have those bonded just the same. This type of bonding sends your connections through your normal ISP's to a secondary ISP that provides the service. Accomplished by a VPN that is split apart and reassembled on the other end this type of connection has redundant property that standard MLPPP does not, as your different routes are more likely to not suffer the same types of outages at the same time.

   The nice thing about these types of circuits is just that though... They are redundant. If one circuit drops out for trouble issues, the other(s) stay active and keep your circuit live although without the added speed of the dead circuit.

   As I find them I will update my reply to this post with ISP's that offer MLPPP and multi connection bonding and cost if I can get it. If you know of any ISP's to add please do so. I believe the more ISP's that learn about this new possible revenue source, the more that will support it.
Title: Re: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: chpalmer on January 30, 2012, 03:15:17 am
Please be advised that neither the author of this post or the owners of this website are recommending any of the companies or devices listed here and they are provided only for reference. Buyer Beware!   Nor are we offering any support for any of these services or devices.    - Canadian                          -USA  Washington State                                 - Canadian              - Canadian    - UK                 - Germany    -Australia            -USA Washington State                                                   - USA Washington State-                            These guys bond multiple connection types

Devices       also need the MLPPP package

ISP Resources

edit- Added link
Title: Re: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: dannjr on February 15, 2012, 11:46:01 am
Thanks chpalmer for all the Great information.
We actually tryed to get MLPPP over the past few weeks.

We're in the 3rd largest city on the country and the problem we have here is actually the lack of other providers.
If your a company that needs redundant connections you can't have true U-verse with another DSL provider.
When I say that AT&T thinks its a good thing to only have one connection provided by them only Even if your business has to support multiple business and be up and running full time.

The other big problem it seems is none of the providers to business have anything with a large enough upload.
AT&T wont support anything in Business DSL with more then a 512 upload.
They tend to always have a reason to upgrade the connections weekly which can take the connection down during criticle uploadsbeing done at night when the other businesses are closed.

MLPPP I would love to have that with load balancing. The pipe would be phat enough to handle just about anything.

Comcast in Chicago and most of the surrounding area is not a real good option for business unless you dont depend on the internet or your phones running 24/7. You need to reboot there modems here at least once a week and durring the Snow Storm or heavy rains the connections always seem to fail. Hopefully one day the FCC will start with fixing the communications problems that Comcast has like they do with the Telco companies.

AT&T doesn't like selling dry loop unless you beg for it. We're currantly changing our systems with AT&T they can't sell us U-verse Fiber because we have another DSL provider over copper to the same location. We were told when all that was available was the U-Verse Dslam over copper they wouldn't do that either unless we converted the other companies DSL over to them.
The other provider is Grandfathered in and they support a higher upload. AND for the most part there up and running 24/7 with generally maybe one outage a year. There is good news if you read this The Article was written a while back. The information is still currant.

Don't get me wrong for what its worth AT&T has been extremely good for us for years But they need to change there practice with businesses. Hopefully in the future this bad practice of dictating how a Small business changes in the future..

Right this minute I'm not a Giant Fan of any of the providers. There's equipment shortages. Some of the older equipment is failing.
Phone lines and Cable lines alike are leaking. AND the worst part companies are almost forced to lay off employees due to the economic decline thats in the toilet and our Governments drag there feet with addressing the problems. I don't need government to address "In God We Trust" hanging on the wall in Congress they need to address the Economy. Not to tell business how to do things but to see how it can be stimulated to get us all going again.
Then maybe companies like Comcast, AT&T and even MegaPath can put money into there backbones. Maybe fix a few bridges Streets and parks again..

Last note: France and a Few other European countries are now playing with 50 to 100Mb connections with a minimum or 10Mb uploads. While most websites cannot support more then a 3Mb download at least there looking ahead.


Title: Re: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: chpalmer on May 26, 2012, 01:50:50 pm
Please- if you an ISP or have knowledge of an ISP that provides this type of bonding, sign up and share.    ;D
Title: Re: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: Buggyman on May 06, 2013, 12:11:28 pm
Please- if you an ISP or have knowledge of an ISP that provides this type of bonding, sign up and share.    ;D

Well... I'm not an ISP  :big:
Hello Mr Palmer!  ;D
Dan told me about this post you posted and I "think" he referred me to it because I'm watching a bonding set up being done. ;)

If any one read this post here..,6395.msg2258186.html#msg2258186 (,6395.msg2258186.html#msg2258186) You will know I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to U-verse. My Community was built for it and it works great! Bonding wasn't needed.

But here in Jacksonville, Standard U verse availability is limited and the older neighborhoods didn't have that offer.
Until now. I'll explain.
My Wife has a lady friend who called me about a month ago asking me about U-verse.
I was honest with her and said that if everything is done right. It's great! We did some issues back last may and it took 96 hours to resolve because of in house mistakes at ATT Uverse upper level. We'll leave that at that. Once that was resolved. They got it fixed here at the house real quick.

Anyway, She ordered the U-verse.
They came the day she had to work. So her Mom baby sat the House. (First Mistake) Mom hadn't a clue what was going on.
The House Tech came, and got the TV and Internet up and running. The Phone was still working.
So he left.
Then a line man came AFTER wards and worked on the pole outside the house.
Then her phone quit working right. She could make out going calls, but wasn't getting incoming calls. Her wireless internet was dropping connections.
So she called me.
Now, you have to understand.... my thinking was she was getting the same thing I had.
I told her to call the Customer Service and raise ****. :big:
She did and they will be back May 10th and I will be there.  :mutley:
They told her that her phone order had gotten dropped for some reasons and they will fix that.
Then what I did was went to her house for a pre investigative inspection.
What I saw was nothing like my set up.
There was a big ole box outside which I found out later was the iNid,
There was a small gateway box in her computer room with just a data cable going in, Nothing going out,  It was hooked up to a battery back up. ???
Her only phone was hooked up to a modem by itself. The rest of the house phone jacks didn't work.
more  ??? Before all this, she was having issues with her phone and att. So. I assume she was getting as dsl phone service?
So I came home and did my online home work. I found Dan post and it all hit me. Then Dan told me about Mr Palmer's post here.
Her house is being set up for 4 wire ? bonding for U-verse.
I had heard rumors of the 4 wire set up. I spoke to a House Techie and he said I didn't need it.
The reason she is having issues is because the House Techie left (and never came back) before the Line Main could finish his end.
And nobody told her they needed to come back. :as:

It will be an interesting day Friday. The lady Friend suggest I bring a book to read. I said nope.,... I'm going to have my nose pointed at what they are doing and asking a LOT of questions.
If this process works, then ATT will inflict more damage to Comcraps market  :elephant:

Buggy  ;D
Title: Re: Bonding DSL Circuits
Post by: Buggyman on May 06, 2013, 12:46:38 pm
By the way Mr. Palmer.
I was a victim of bonding back last May when I was out for 96 hours.
Just not the kind of Bonding I needed  :big:

As you know, I don't need 4 wires for my U-verse. Only two.
Last April I began expericing drop of service. I realize later it coincided with heavy rain.
As soon as it quit raining I got my servive back.
Then we had the week long rain storm come and it knocked me off completely. :as:
After dealing with the Issue at the ATT office and finally got a Line man to show up He began the investigation.
My fec noise was way out of wack.
The House Tech thought it was a bad Gateway Modem,
The Line Man checked my House after the nid and it was fine.
He ran down to the vRad and that was fine.
Puzzled, he was scratching his head.  ???
Then all of sudden he dropped everything and ran out to the Phone Tower across the street.
I was right behind him.
He took the cover off and said AHA!!!!
Problem solved.

Even though I don't need 4 wire for my U-verse. The old nid was 4 wired hooked up.
But the unused two wires were not hooked up across the street.
They were twisted together and stuck in the ground. WET GROUND.
It was the source of the FEC and my outage.
96 plus hours of no service just because someone stuck that pair in the ground. ::)

I've had no problems since.  ;D

Buggy  8)